Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

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Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:46 pm

Nice bit of whataboutery ... but are you actually saying Corbyn didn't call Hamas and Hezbollah "his friends" and he didn't attend any events in support of IRA Republicanism/stand in memory of a dead one.... plenty of public record of these...

Are we starting to accept the IRA as "ok?" Wow - and this is an Aldershot site.

Don't bring South Africa into this, as I never mentioned it. That has nothing to do with it.

brian bloomfield
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by brian bloomfield » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Jason wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 pm
I think often there is a lot of misrepresentation of Corbyn's alleged allegiances with certain groups, which all too often is believed and spun by the hard right liners.

Corbyn has often met with groups from different factions yes, but does meeting with groups necessarily mean support for them? No it doesn't He makes no secret for his desire for equality, justice and peace. How can you broker peace with another group if you don't understand their intentions in the first place? Or do you simply do it by hoping that your army is bigger than theirs and that you will simply kill them until they submit and comply?

Lets not forget that in terms of Irish Peace, Jeremy Corbyn supported the Good Friday Agreement, many Tories did not.

And if we want to talk about support, all political leaders are at it, one of Margaret Thatcher's for instance, General Pinochet, who doesn't exactly have a squeaky clean record when it comes to human rights - but nobody has a problem with that, because he assisted us in the Falklands conflict.
Pinochet helped Britain in the Falklands War with the assistance of placing strategic radar systems to evaluate exact Argentinian air and sea positions. I suppose Thatcher thought she and Britain had a debt to him
In contrast Corbyn did vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement much against the myth that he voted against, cost Moggy a fair few pennies in an out of court settlement
Corbyn doesn't need to be spun, all the evidence is there good and bad like all people.

Richard Petty
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:49 pm

One of the reasons that this thread has lasted as long as it has and has been so well contributed to is because we have managed to keep the debate polite and avoided the more serious type of personal attacks on politicians themselves. We have also managed to avoid subjects that may have really deep personal meanings to some people.

I may not have explained that very well but I hope you get the gist. Going off topic as the last posts have and opening up discussions on terrorism, religions. apartheid etc.... will be understandably very personal for some people and I suspect would quite rightly bring this thread and the debate to an end which would be a shame.

So far we have been a good example on here about how debate should work and how getting to the truth on matters is a lot easier when everyone respects other peoples views and are open minded enough to realise that no one is always right just as no one is always wrong.

Jason
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Jason » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:25 pm

brian bloomfield wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:34 pm
Jason wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 pm
I think often there is a lot of misrepresentation of Corbyn's alleged allegiances with certain groups, which all too often is believed and spun by the hard right liners.

Corbyn has often met with groups from different factions yes, but does meeting with groups necessarily mean support for them? No it doesn't He makes no secret for his desire for equality, justice and peace. How can you broker peace with another group if you don't understand their intentions in the first place? Or do you simply do it by hoping that your army is bigger than theirs and that you will simply kill them until they submit and comply?

Lets not forget that in terms of Irish Peace, Jeremy Corbyn supported the Good Friday Agreement, many Tories did not.

And if we want to talk about support, all political leaders are at it, one of Margaret Thatcher's for instance, General Pinochet, who doesn't exactly have a squeaky clean record when it comes to human rights - but nobody has a problem with that, because he assisted us in the Falklands conflict.
Pinochet helped Britain in the Falklands War with the assistance of placing strategic radar systems to evaluate exact Argentinian air and sea positions. I suppose Thatcher thought she and Britain had a debt to him
In contrast Corbyn did vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement much against the myth that he voted against, cost Moggy a fair few pennies in an out of court settlement
Corbyn doesn't need to be spun, all the evidence is there good and bad like all people.
Maybe he doesn't need to be spun, but he is. The tabloid press have always put the headlines of him meeting with other groups and calling them friends as showing him to be a terrorist or a terrorist supporter. Ironic, when a few days later when he says that he wouldn't press the "nuclear button" he gets criticised for being a pacifist! Seems a bit odd to call someone a terrorist pacifist!

In terms of his calling Hamas and Hezbollah "friends", he said that he used the term to introduce their speakers, a term quite often used to introduce even those in opposition. But he also said "Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree … There is not going to be a peace process unless there is talks involving Israel, Hezbollah and Hamas and I think everyone knows that" - however this is not so widely published as it does not support what the primarily right wing press try to achieve.

I do not understand the problem with his wanting to resolve issues through diplomacy rather than through fighting.

Jason
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Jason » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:28 pm

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:49 pm
One of the reasons that this thread has lasted as long as it has and has been so well contributed to is because we have managed to keep the debate polite and avoided the more serious type of personal attacks on politicians themselves. We have also managed to avoid subjects that may have really deep personal meanings to some people.

I may not have explained that very well but I hope you get the gist. Going off topic as the last posts have and opening up discussions on terrorism, religions. apartheid etc.... will be understandably very personal for some people and I suspect would quite rightly bring this thread and the debate to an end which would be a shame.

So far we have been a good example on here about how debate should work and how getting to the truth on matters is a lot easier when everyone respects other peoples views and are open minded enough to realise that no one is always right just as no one is always wrong.
I hope that the slight tangent to the original conversation does not lead to that Richard. I opened it up a little more because people were cursing the current state of Brexit as a way to allow Jeremy Corbyn into power and I wanted to know why people were so against him. I appreciate it has opened up some sensitive issues, but even the issue of Brexit is quite an emotive one, so I would hope that everyone can still remain polite and civil when talking even if the discussion progresses.

ians
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by ians » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:35 pm

But he did decide it was a good idea to attend funerals for IRA Terrorists!
Now let’s have a think about that shall we?

I decide that to somehow bring people together I will attend the funeral of a Muslim terrorist that has killed 21 British civilians on British soil in Birmingham just as an example? How would you feel about my actions?

This is exactly what Corbin was doing back in the 70/80’s! Imagine if it had been one of your friends or family that had been killed.

Charles Dickens
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Charles Dickens » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Theresa May has an absolute genius for putting flamboyant labels on empty luggage.

80fc
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by 80fc » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:51 pm

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:49 pm
One of the reasons that this thread has lasted as long as it has and has been so well contributed to is because we have managed to keep the debate polite and avoided the more serious type of personal attacks on politicians themselves. We have also managed to avoid subjects that may have really deep personal meanings to some people.

I may not have explained that very well but I hope you get the gist. Going off topic as the last posts have and opening up discussions on terrorism, religions. apartheid etc.... will be understandably very personal for some people and I suspect would quite rightly bring this thread and the debate to an end which would be a shame.

So far we have been a good example on here about how debate should work and how getting to the truth on matters is a lot easier when everyone respects other peoples views and are open minded enough to realise that no one is always right just as no one is always wrong.
When I started this thread with a clip of Love Island and a girl thinking that Brexit meant no more Spanish holidays and cutting down all our trees I had no idea what a wonderful debate it would open up. I certainly have learnt from it and I hope other people have. I know that some people have said that it shouldn't have been here because it's not football related, but surely it's good that football fans have the chance to share their own thoughts with other fans on the important things in life

Richard Petty
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Jason I agree about discussing the threat of Corbyn and Labour based on their UK policies its just the personal bit about his (rightly or wrongly) perceived allegiances that somehow always seems to turn a bit nasty when discussed, that was my concern.

I fear a labour government for a number of reasons.

1. They are every bit as divided on Brexit so that will not improve our situation at all.

2. They do have what sound like good suggestions when read out as soundbites but they cannot fully explain where the money will come from to fund them. John McDonald says they will borrow the money. That's what the last Labour Government did it and nearly bankrupted us. remember the note left on the treasury desk by Liam Byrne when Labour lost Power "'Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left".

3. They want to give back power to the Trade Unions that it took years to sensibly remodel in order to get to the balanced level of power they have now

4. For all their talk of peoples rights and freedoms they have very little regard for that in the real world and Momentum in particular is designed to silence and intimidate opposition to the parties view (To be fair there are many in the labour party who detest Momentum but they have no power in the party) What's really worrying is how that intimidation is sometimes not just verbal but physical.

5. They have side-lined and politically castrated the more experienced MP's in their party so unless Labour changes direction and reappoints some of the more experienced MP's to the front bench then Labour winning a general election would leave us with the country being run by a government with no knowledge or experience of how things work and what to do.

6. The litmus test. If you have a government as bruised, battered and on its knees as the Conservatives and yet as the opposition you constantly lose the arguments and cannot impress the public (Latest polls show both parties neck and neck) then what confidence can anyone have in them as a future government.

As I said in a previous post I may be a Conservative myself but I am screaming out for a good opposition because that's what a government needs to keep it on track and focused.

Birdman
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Birdman » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:00 pm

You must've read my mind, 80fc (not a lot to delve through but, hey ho). I was going to ask you earlier today if you expected your opening post to lead to what it's become.

Richard Petty
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:05 pm

I am really proud that we have Shotsweb, there is a diversity of opinion on here that can be really entertaining and informative on many subjects both football and non football and whatever our opinions we all have the one thing that completely unites us ATFC :D

redblueuptoyou
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by redblueuptoyou » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Found this whole thread very interesting:

https://twitter.com/ldobsonhughes/statu ... 03821?s=19

Stenhouse
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Stenhouse » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:27 pm

I am joining this debate very late on. I have enjoyed reading all of the different views on Brexit. I voted to leave. I did not have a vote to join the EU, but then again, nobody did. Just the Common Market when I was a teenager back in the 70's, for to remain in the Common Market. I look at things with regards to Brexit very simplistically. My main reason to vote leave was because I wanted to have some sense of democracy back in this country. Whilst our current political system in the UK is by no means perfect, we always have the option to vote for a replacement every 5 years or so. If I do not wish to vote for any of the candidates on the ballot box, I can still protest by supplying a spolit paper.

I firmly believe that we have not taken advantage of the near two years since we voted to leave. Early on. in my view, we should have left a list of our proposals at the Brussels / Strasbourg circus. As any form of constructive work on our proposals would have been rubbished by the EU negotiators early on, it would have been great to say ok, no deal, WTO rules here we come. I am sure that Msr Barnier etc would have eventually relented. All that has happened in 2 years is that we have negotiated more and more of our bargaining power away, for no tangible return.

So there we have it. A pretty dis-functional Cabinet / Government on the question of Brexit. Two wasted years. As an aside, it will be wonderful to finally embrace the day when we no longer have these 7 unelected 'Presidents', our Presidents, lording over us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... pean_Union

Again, apologies for my simplistic view. Whilst dispensing with the common agricultural policy, the common fisheries policy, subservience to the ECHR, European Court of Justice, single market, open borders, etc, the issue of democracy was the over-riding one for me.

Stenhouse
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Stenhouse » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:29 pm

Stenhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:27 pm
I am joining this debate very late on. I have enjoyed reading all of the different views on Brexit. I voted to leave. I did not have a vote to join the EU, but then again, nobody did. Just the Common Market when I was a teenager back in the 70's, for to remain in the Common Market. I look at things with regards to Brexit very simplistically. My main reason to vote leave was because I wanted to have some sense of democracy back in this country. Whilst our current political system in the UK is by no means perfect, we always have the option to vote for a replacement every 5 years or so. If I do not wish to vote for any of the candidates on the ballot box, I can still protest by supplying a spoilt paper.

I firmly believe that we have not taken advantage of the near two years since we voted to leave. Early on. in my view, we should have left a list of our proposals at the Brussels / Strasbourg circus. As any form of constructive work on our proposals would have been rubbished by the EU negotiators early on, it would have been great to say ok, no deal, WTO rules here we come. I am sure that Msr Barnier etc would have eventually relented. All that has happened in 2 years is that we have negotiated more and more of our bargaining power away, for no tangible return.

So there we have it. A pretty dis-functional Cabinet / Government on the question of Brexit. Two wasted years. As an aside, it will be wonderful to finally embrace the day when we no longer have these 7 unelected 'Presidents', our Presidents, lording over us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... pean_Union

Again, apologies for my simplistic view. Whilst dispensing with the common agricultural policy, the common fisheries policy, subservience to the ECHR, European Court of Justice, single market, open borders, etc, the issue of democracy was the over-riding one for me.

ACA
Posts: 125
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by ACA » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:57 pm

If by "subservience to the ECHR" you are referring to the European Convention on Human Rights (or the European Court of Human Rights), that has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union. It's completely separate and distinct and is totally unaffected by Brexit.


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