Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

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Notts Shot
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Notts Shot » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:41 am

Dom Sterlings Left Leg wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:04 am
I've kept out of this, but following it I feel it gives a perfect window into the whole brexit divide.

On the one side you have people who wish to leave who hold that view for the base reason that they feel Britain should be an independent state that decides its own future.

On the other hand you have the Remainers that talk in dominant tones with absolute clarity on the future. Very self important, they give the impression that they have all the answers if only we would listen.

The one thing I have never heard from the remain side is one convincing POSITIVE reason for staying in the EU. We know your arguments about the supposed doom of leaving, but what about a positive reason for staying in...
For 500 years and more, countries in western Europe have been engaged in endless destructive wars, culminating in the slaughter of the last century. The EU has for the last 50 years, despite differences, made it extremely unlikely that these countries would resort to military action against each other.

Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 am

Oh yes, the EU has kept the peace for 50 years? Nothing to do with NATO at all or the scars of WW2 being so raw? And I guess the wee disagreement in the Balkans doesn't really count!

When I doubt the validity of the glorious European Union, I take inspiration from the saying of the Great President Junker...


1999 - We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.

2005 - If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'.

2007 - Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?

2015 - There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties

tonygodfrey
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by tonygodfrey » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:03 am

Dom Sterlings Left Leg wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:04 am

The one thing I have never heard from the remain side is one convincing POSITIVE reason for staying in the EU. We know your arguments about the supposed doom of leaving, but what about a positive reason for staying in...
ECONOMIC PROSPERITY (ie making the money to pay for the NHS and our state pensions etc etc)

Ancient Shot
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ancient Shot » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:08 am

Economic prosperity that includes doling out billions to failed states like Spain, Italy, Ireland etc etc ?

Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:26 am

Hmm... economic prosperity? I thought the whole country was in a mess...NHS struggling to cope with demand, not enough housing jobs and school places.

Come on chaps, make your mind up? Which is it?

tonygodfrey
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by tonygodfrey » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:50 am

Well obviously I could be wrong. But when every living former PM and virtually every UK industrialist (apart from the bloke who runs Weatherspoons and the bloke who makes overpriced hoovers) tells you something is the case it might be worth listening to them.

If you ask an overseas industrialist what they think you generally get a roll of the eyes and something like "of course we are likely to invest more in the UK if you stay in Europe, surely that's obvious?" I don't think there are any (please correct me) who think it is a good idea for us to leave.

On the other hand, you may wish to believe Boris Johnson, Michael Gove or Nigel Farage who are such nice and sensible chaps that they can barely bring themselves to speak to each other.

Cph.shots
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Cph.shots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:51 am

Ian M wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:46 pm
Nice bit of whataboutery ... but are you actually saying Corbyn didn't call Hamas and Hezbollah "his friends" and he didn't attend any events in support of IRA Republicanism/stand in memory of a dead one.... plenty of public record of these...I've no idea and I'm guessing that you don't have any concrete proof either, apart from daily mail articles, which isn't proof.

Are we starting to accept the IRA as "ok?" Wow - and this is an Aldershot site. Plenty of politicians and others, have met and negotiated with the Sinn Fein and other NI groups that had para military wings, how do think a negotiated peace came about? Her Maj even met with Martin McGuiness (not sure about Adams, does that make her a sympathiser too?

Don't bring South Africa into this, as I never mentioned it. That has nothing to do with it.
Don't really see why I can't throw SA into the mix, The ANC was a "terroist" organization at the time, just like the ira, hezbollah and hammas.

Charles Dickens
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Charles Dickens » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 am

Ancient Shot wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:08 am
Economic prosperity that includes doling out billions to failed states like Spain, Italy, Ireland etc etc ?
You missed out all the ex Eastern bloc countries and propping up NATO by subsidising the slow European EC payers.

Hopefully Donald Trump will give them all a NATO ultimatum, pay up or get out of the defence of Europe club.

Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:13 am

Well Cph. The argument was the "Right Wing Media's" manipulation of Corbyn's activities.

He prominently attended IRA memorials and Republican marches... are you saying that didn't happen?.
He refused to condemn the IRA when asked directly on camera..........are you saying that didn't happen?
He called HAMAS and Hezbollah "friends" ...then had to publically apologise for it........are you saying that didn't happen?

So, bringing up South Africa doesn't excuse any of the above, or support the point about "Corbyn" being a decent chap and its all Right Wing spin does it?

Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:20 am

..and the because the ANC were "once called Terrorists" that somehow justifies the activities of any other groups labelled as "terrorists?"

Oh my days!

Notts Shot
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Notts Shot » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:40 am

Ian M wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 am
Oh yes, the EU has kept the peace for 50 years? Nothing to do with NATO at all or the scars of WW2 being so raw? And I guess the wee disagreement in the Balkans doesn't really count!

I was responding to the poster who asked for any positive thing about the EU. I would have thought that sparing the ordinary people from the carnage of war is always a good thing and worth pursuing through every means possible.

I didn't say the EU has kept the peace for 50 years, but the existence of an organisation made up of former enemies has meant that those countries now talk to each other and try to reach mutually beneficial agreements rather than fighting each other. Even though the scars of the Great War were still very raw, only 21 years later an even more destructive war broke out.

I also said western European countries.

Ian M
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Ian M » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:44 am

No probs with that..

Cph.shots
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Cph.shots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:13 pm

Ian M wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:13 am
Well Cph. The argument was the "Right Wing Media's" manipulation of Corbyn's activities.

He prominently attended IRA memorials and Republican marches... are you saying that didn't happen?.
He refused to condemn the IRA when asked directly on camera..........are you saying that didn't happen?
He called HAMAS and Hezbollah "friends" ...then had to publically apologise for it........are you saying that didn't happen?

So, bringing up South Africa doesn't excuse any of the above, or support the point about "Corbyn" being a decent chap and its all Right Wing spin does it? I'm not "excusing" anything as it's not my place and I don't think there's anything to excuse. It is however strange that you only want to see one side of JC and are completly disinterested in anything (allegedly) good he has done. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I am genuinely wouldn't dream of trying to change yours but I do think you have an extremely blinkered way of handling news and information.
Sorry Ian but all I see here is regugitated "statements" from unnamed sources. I'm not stating facts one way or the other because I haven't done the research, unlike many others who just throw stuff out there because it fits their narrative.
All I'm asking is that people check what they quote as "facts".

Cph.shots
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Cph.shots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:16 pm

Notts Shot wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:40 am
Ian M wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 am
Oh yes, the EU has kept the peace for 50 years? Nothing to do with NATO at all or the scars of WW2 being so raw? And I guess the wee disagreement in the Balkans doesn't really count!

I was responding to the poster who asked for any positive thing about the EU. I would have thought that sparing the ordinary people from the carnage of war is always a good thing and worth pursuing through every means possible.

I didn't say the EU has kept the peace for 50 years, but the existence of an organisation made up of former enemies has meant that those countries now talk to each other and try to reach mutually beneficial agreements rather than fighting each other. Even though the scars of the Great War were still very raw, only 21 years later an even more destructive war broke out.

I also said western European countries.
The "wee disagreement" in the balkans was before any of those countries came into the EU or Nato, alot of them still aren't.

Cph.shots
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Re: Brexit has ruined our country for our youth

Post by Cph.shots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Ian M wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:20 am
..and the because the ANC were "once called Terrorists" that somehow justifies the activities of any other groups labelled as "terrorists?"

Oh my days!

No. "One mans terroist is another mans freedom fighter".


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