Protests

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James Frazer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:25 pm
Location: Alexandra Park
Re: Protests

Post by James Frazer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:06 pm

Whilst not wishing to pile all the blame on our British ancestors, it may be worthwhile spending a moment to consider the history of Africa & the Middle East. Modern borders have largely been defined by the influence of European explorers.
Today, the boundaries that separate and define Africa's many nations are still based largely on the lines drawn by Europeans. National borders often divide members of ethnic groups or force historical enemies to live together. In such areas, people's allegiance to the state is often challenged by tribal and ethnic loyalties, and political unrest is common.
We need to bear this in mind when we look at the political upheaval in many of these countries - problems caused in part by our pioneering forefathers.
Closer to home, the relations between the "Home Nations" are not always harmonious either.

brian bloomfield
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:00 am
Location: Barcelona
Re: Protests

Post by brian bloomfield » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:08 pm

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:48 pm
ShotOnTarget wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:23 pm
hepcat wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:20 pm
Even the genocide in Rwanda didn't dispel this myth for white people
I came across someone that had studied African Politics after the genocide and she didn't know what I was talking about and was completely unaware that it had happened. I guess the University was too busy making sure everyone on the course was aware that they would fail should they not acknowledge that all of the worlds problems are all to do with white colonialism.
A lot of them are. The British Empire stole these countries wealth and enslaved their people. We are now seeing the consequences.
It's interesting to see that there are no demonstrations in Africa now, in respect to the colonisation of their wealth by the Chinese government, an act being allowed by African govenments for short term individual financial gain.

As an aside in my opinion there is genuinly only one priviledged group in society and that is the rich. And of course the rich are spread across all parts of society and is not solely indicative of race or gender.

Charles Dickens
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:38 am
Re: Protests

Post by Charles Dickens » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm

Vietnam sets an example to the World. It was bombed relentlessly by the Americans during the long war and many lives were lost. However, It appears to bear no grudge and seems happy to trade and communicate with the French and USA and its supporting allies. Unlike so many other countries, it does not constantly blame previous colonial history or racism for its own current economic performance.Its people work hard, welcomes tourists and gets on with daily life.

lanternhall
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:37 am
Re: Protests

Post by lanternhall » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm

Charles Dickens wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm
Vietnam sets an example to the World. It was bombed relentlessly by the Americans during the long war and many lives were lost. However, It appears to bear no grudge and seems happy to trade and communicate with the French and USA and its supporting allies. Unlike so many other countries, it does not constantly blame previous colonial history or racism for its own current economic performance.Its people work hard, welcomes tourists and gets on with daily life.
Problem is a lot if Afrucan countries poverty now is because of colonialism. We stripped their wealth.

Crowthorne
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:18 pm
Re: Protests

Post by Crowthorne » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:16 pm

brian bloomfield wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:08 pm
lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:48 pm
ShotOnTarget wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:23 pm


I came across someone that had studied African Politics after the genocide and she didn't know what I was talking about and was completely unaware that it had happened. I guess the University was too busy making sure everyone on the course was aware that they would fail should they not acknowledge that all of the worlds problems are all to do with white colonialism.
A lot of them are. The British Empire stole these countries wealth and enslaved their people. We are now seeing the consequences.
It's interesting to see that there are no demonstrations in Africa now, in respect to the colonisation of their wealth by the Chinese government, an act being allowed by African govenments for short term individual financial gain.
The Chinese are robbing Africa blind, and they are also doing the same all over the world.
From building artificial islands for military bases to claim the Spratly islands and desecrating war graves their greed doesnt stop, and the only people that benefit are party elite.

Fuggletim
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:16 pm
Location: Whitehill
Re: Protests

Post by Fuggletim » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:32 pm

The British Empire was a product of its time and although there were things that were very regrettable (sure the French and the Spanish have quite a few regrets about their empires too), but it cannot be denied it gave this country the great status and wealth it did and also modelled a lot of countries to also become successful along British political and legal principles.

However there are countries that since their own independence have made a real mess of Government that cannot be blamed on the Empire and have been largely home grown issues. Obvious example here is Zimbabwe.

Curious also, but as you may know I do go to the Philippines a lot. Manila was occupied by the British in the 18th Century after a squabble with the Spaniards, before it was given back under a treaty. Discussion with quite a few Filipinos over the years does give a distinct impression that they believe they may have been better off had the British stayed. Quite literally, acedemic, but it does make you wonder. Indeed what would the world be like today had there been no colonialism at all?

lanternhall
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:37 am
Re: Protests

Post by lanternhall » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:51 pm

Fuggletim wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:32 pm
The British Empire was a product of its time and although there were things that were very regrettable (sure the French and the Spanish have quite a few regrets about their empires too), but it cannot be denied it gave this country the great status and wealth it did and also modelled a lot of countries to also become successful along British political and legal principles.

However there are countries that since their own independence have made a real mess of Government that cannot be blamed on the Empire and have been largely home grown issues. Obvious example here is Zimbabwe.

Curious also, but as you may know I do go to the Philippines a lot. Manila was occupied by the British in the 18th Century after a squabble with the Spaniards, before it was given back under a treaty. Discussion with quite a few Filipinos over the years does give a distinct impression that they believe they may have been better off had the British stayed. Quite literally, acedemic, but it does make you wonder. Indeed what would the world be like today had there been no colonialism at all?
Of course the empire can be blamed for mess of countries independence. We were a colonial power governed by self interest. We didn't educate the population. How are they supposed to move to democracy? After second world war we were skint and left these countries to fend for themselves.

How many innocent lives did partician of India cost?

Don't forget the British government supported apartheid in Rhodesia ( now Zimbabwe) for years.

Charles Dickens
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:38 am
Re: Protests

Post by Charles Dickens » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:33 pm

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Charles Dickens wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm
Vietnam sets an example to the World. It was bombed relentlessly by the Americans during the long war and many lives were lost. However, It appears to bear no grudge and seems happy to trade and communicate with the French and USA and its supporting allies. Unlike so many other countries, it does not constantly blame previous colonial history or racism for its own current economic performance.Its people work hard, welcomes tourists and gets on with daily life.
Problem is a lot if Afrucan countries poverty now is because of colonialism. We stripped their wealth.
Colonialism in Africa started over two hundred years ago and most countries have been free from colonial rule for a long time.The present poor state of some African countries is entirely due its home grown governments, with many run by dictators and corruption appears to be commonplace.Its time for these countries to take full responsibilty for their own affairs.It is no surprise that so many Africans are so desperate to move to colonial Great Britain.

hepcat
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:50 pm
Re: Protests

Post by hepcat » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:54 pm

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Charles Dickens wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm
Vietnam sets an example to the World. It was bombed relentlessly by the Americans during the long war and many lives were lost. However, It appears to bear no grudge and seems happy to trade and communicate with the French and USA and its supporting allies. Unlike so many other countries, it does not constantly blame previous colonial history or racism for its own current economic performance.Its people work hard, welcomes tourists and gets on with daily life.
Problem is a lot if Afrucan countries poverty now is because of colonialism. We stripped their wealth.
Too simplistic. Mugabe caused severe poverty in Zimbabwe (save for himself and his cronies) That has nothing to do with colonialization ; these countries were often left with industries and farm lands /tea plantations/orchards. That Mugabe and others like him destroyed the industries and turned the bread basket of Africa into a famine zone isn't the fault of colonialism. For about two decades African kleptocrats blamed "Neo colonialism" what ever that was meant to be-odd too that they were complaining of this red herring when they had total control of these "Neo colonial" countries. After half a century or more of independence there is no one to blame but themselves. Again, ethnic on ethnic racism is a big problem in Africa and again that has nothing to do with colonialism. Mugabe's genocides far outstripped any of the Ian Smith era racism. DO read "Mukiwa" by Peter Godwin; it gives an insight into colonial Rhodesia coming to an end and it dilutes the simplistic dogmas of the anti apartheid era. Even Smith conceded that black majority rule would happen ;what he feared would happen (genocide race hate between the black tribes) did happen. Nobody listened. That the left in the 60's backed St. Robert Mugabe (because he was a "Marxist") for power is obviously a painfully stupid thing to have done -as is Stevie Wonder's idiotic lyric on "Master Blaster" in 1980;"Freedom has come to Zimbabwe"!!! They're still waiting Steve.. If you read "Mukiwa" you'll force yourself to think and wonder what really is or could be the solution. Very few Mandela's exist and without him SA could still sink into a Mugabe oblivion. Blaming past colonialism is merely closing off any debate that would uncover and seek to resolve the real issues.

Stenhouse
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:58 am
Location: Farnborough
Re: Protests

Post by Stenhouse » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:47 pm

Fuggletim wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:32 pm
The British Empire was a product of its time and although there were things that were very regrettable (sure the French and the Spanish have quite a few regrets about their empires too), but it cannot be denied it gave this country the great status and wealth it did and also modelled a lot of countries to also become successful along British political and legal principles.

However there are countries that since their own independence have made a real mess of Government that cannot be blamed on the Empire and have been largely home grown issues. Obvious example here is Zimbabwe.

Curious also, but as you may know I do go to the Philippines a lot. Manila was occupied by the British in the 18th Century after a squabble with the Spaniards, before it was given back under a treaty. Discussion with quite a few Filipinos over the years does give a distinct impression that they believe they may have been better off had the British stayed. Quite literally, acedemic, but it does make you wonder. Indeed what would the world be like today had there been no colonialism at all?
And as you know I am in the Philippines often too. Yes, the British rule for 2 years was discussed with family there. Look at Hong Kong now (where I lived for 4 years). They would bite your hand off for 1997 to return! My point is that the British Empire was responsible for atrocities, but it also was a great benefit to countries, by providing infrastructure. Besides, I am not personally responsible for what happened 100 years ago.

Fuggletim
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:16 pm
Location: Whitehill
Re: Protests

Post by Fuggletim » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:37 pm

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:51 pm
Fuggletim wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:32 pm
The British Empire was a product of its time and although there were things that were very regrettable (sure the French and the Spanish have quite a few regrets about their empires too), but it cannot be denied it gave this country the great status and wealth it did and also modelled a lot of countries to also become successful along British political and legal principles.

However there are countries that since their own independence have made a real mess of Government that cannot be blamed on the Empire and have been largely home grown issues. Obvious example here is Zimbabwe.

Curious also, but as you may know I do go to the Philippines a lot. Manila was occupied by the British in the 18th Century after a squabble with the Spaniards, before it was given back under a treaty. Discussion with quite a few Filipinos over the years does give a distinct impression that they believe they may have been better off had the British stayed. Quite literally, acedemic, but it does make you wonder. Indeed what would the world be like today had there been no colonialism at all?
Of course the empire can be blamed for mess of countries independence. We were a colonial power governed by self interest. We didn't educate the population. How are they supposed to move to democracy? After second world war we were skint and left these countries to fend for themselves.

How many innocent lives did partician of India cost?

Don't forget the British government supported apartheid in Rhodesia ( now Zimbabwe) for years.
Not completely true. WW2 was pivotal in bringing about the dismantling of the Empire, but independence movements existed long before then. The exponents of their independence movements thought they could self govern and it is true some countries did it well, but some didn't. I think that if you look at the constitutional and legal systems of some countries, among other things, you will see the British did a good job, although as has to be conceded not perfect in every way.

Some of these countries have been independent for more than 70 x years, and if they haven't got rid of the burdens of colonialism and are still poorly governed today, they cannot blame the Empire influence for that.

Not having a go at you personally Lanternhall, but too many people seem to think that by denying history happened or trying to airbrush it out is somehow going to make everything alright. We should learn from history and not to do the same things if they were wrong.

Read "1984"; and consider the "Ministry of Truth." A work of fiction or a prophecy?

bordon shot
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:13 pm
Re: Protests

Post by bordon shot » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:23 pm

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:43 pm
Cph.shots wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:32 pm
I have enjoyed reading the wide range of different opinions on this board over last few months, but I have to admit I find it incredibly insulting that you are saying that I, & a lot of other Shot Webbers are racist..Especially when you do not know this people on a personal level.
S
[/I haven't noticed LH calling anyone on here a racist!color]


That is because I have not. I believe that there is inherent racism in society. That does not mean that I am calling any individual out.
[/quote]

“It is a fact that this is a racist country. Not as bad as when Windrush generation arrived but it is still racist“

These were the comments in your post to the one I replied to, Which is a bit different to what you have said in your reply to CPH. IMO By stating (as fact) we are a racist country, you are implying we are all racist, which is what I objected to. I think we can all agree there is some racism in this country, but I don’t see a racist country as the one you want to portray.

ShotOnTarget
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:22 pm
Re: Protests

Post by ShotOnTarget » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:32 am

lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:48 pm
ShotOnTarget wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:23 pm
hepcat wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:20 pm
Even the genocide in Rwanda didn't dispel this myth for white people
I came across someone that had studied African Politics after the genocide and she didn't know what I was talking about and was completely unaware that it had happened. I guess the University was too busy making sure everyone on the course was aware that they would fail should they not acknowledge that all of the worlds problems are all to do with white colonialism.
A lot of them are. The British Empire stole these countries wealth and enslaved their people. We are now seeing the consequences.
History is a funny old thing, with time lines and events being stretched and compressed as might be convenient. With that in mind, history might even claim that German expansionism is the reason Brexit happened. Just a few twists on the facts here and there and it's job done.

lanternhall
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:37 am
Re: Protests

Post by lanternhall » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:01 pm

bordon shot wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:23 pm
lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:43 pm
Cph.shots wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:32 pm
I have enjoyed reading the wide range of different opinions on this board over last few months, but I have to admit I find it incredibly insulting that you are saying that I, & a lot of other Shot Webbers are racist..Especially when you do not know this people on a personal level.
S
[/I haven't noticed LH calling anyone on here a racist!color]


That is because I have not. I believe that there is inherent racism in society. That does not mean that I am calling any individual out.


“It is a fact that this is a racist country. Not as bad as when Windrush generation arrived but it is still racist“

These were the comments in your post to the one I replied to, Which is a bit different to what you have said in your reply to CPH. IMO By stating (as fact) we are a racist country, you are implying we are all racist, which is what I objected to. I think we can all agree there is some racism in this country, but I don’t see a racist country as the one you want to portray.
[/quote]


Racism is inherent in this country. That does not mean that every white person in this country is racist. Of course there not.

Cph.shots
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Protests

Post by Cph.shots » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:32 pm

brian bloomfield wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:08 pm
lanternhall wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:48 pm
ShotOnTarget wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:23 pm


I came across someone that had studied African Politics after the genocide and she didn't know what I was talking about and was completely unaware that it had happened. I guess the University was too busy making sure everyone on the course was aware that they would fail should they not acknowledge that all of the worlds problems are all to do with white colonialism.
A lot of them are. The British Empire stole these countries wealth and enslaved their people. We are now seeing the consequences.
It's interesting to see that there are no demonstrations in Africa now, in respect to the colonisation of their wealth by the Chinese government, an act being allowed by African govenments for short term individual financial gain.

As an aside in my opinion there is genuinly only one priviledged group in society and that is the rich. And of course the rich are spread across all parts of society and is not solely indicative of race or gender.


Excellently and eloquently put Brian.


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