FGR & Hector Bellerin

Old Bob
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:23 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Old Bob » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:05 pm

Desertshot wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:12 am
I have no issue with Mr Vince with regard to his Eco business but I do with his sponsorship of FGR. Is it hypocritical? his main tenet is sustainability.
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that you are committing the error of using "sustainability" ambiguously, albeit indirectly. Dale Vince's "main tenet" is ecological sustainability. This is distinctly different from financial sustainability. Yet you have (indirectly, as I say) implied that they are the same thing.

Incidentally, "sustainability" is a very poorly defined and over-used word. It's a favourite among charlatans and politicians (and maybe even with Dale Vince himself). So any argument that turns on an interpretation of this vague term is inherently a weak one.

If I do have an issue with Mr Vince myself, it's with his silly haircuts :lol:

Desertshot
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:25 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Desertshot » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:51 pm

Old Bob wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:05 pm
Desertshot wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:12 am
I have no issue with Mr Vince with regard to his Eco business but I do with his sponsorship of FGR. Is it hypocritical? his main tenet is sustainability.
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that you are committing the error of using "sustainability" ambiguously, albeit indirectly. Dale Vince's "main tenet" is ecological sustainability. This is distinctly different from financial sustainability. Yet you have (indirectly, as I say) implied that they are the same thing.

Incidentally, "sustainability" is a very poorly defined and over-used word. It's a favourite among charlatans and politicians (and maybe even with Dale Vince himself). So any argument that turns on an interpretation of this vague term is inherently a weak one.

If I do have an issue with Mr Vince myself, it's with his silly haircuts :lol:
Thats why I asked the question "Is it hypocritical? " as you quite right he state he is interested in eco sustainability but are financial and eco sustainability linked, can you have one without the other? Perhaps it's more a question of ethics. Also I don't agree that "sustainability" is poorly defined. It is misused....and maybe used to often but it is easily defined....

Old Bob
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:23 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Old Bob » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:41 am

Desertshot wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:51 pm
Thats why I asked the question "Is it hypocritical? " as you quite right he state he is interested in eco sustainability but are financial and eco sustainability linked, can you have one without the other? Perhaps it's more a question of ethics. Also I don't agree that "sustainability" is poorly defined. It is misused....and maybe used to often but it is easily defined....
Yes, you are right ... they are linked, but not identical.

I think you are wrong that "sustainability" can be easily and unequivocally defined. All attempts at definitions that I have seen do one of two things. Either they are so all-encompassing as to mean little or nothing (e.g., "avoidance of depletion of the world's natural resources") or they involve vague terms like this beauty from Wikipedia: "a socio-ecological process characterized by the pursuit of a common ideal".

So what's your definition, Desertshot?

CH
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:31 pm
Location: Aldershot
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by CH » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:24 am

What I found with FGR and their new eco stadium plan, was that most queried the suitability of a wooden stadium in the modern era, but failed to question why pulverising multiple tons of concrete at the current stadium that is only 15 years old and perfectly fit for purpose using gas guzzling JCBS, didnt feature in the brochure explaining how green and nature friendly the project was.

Middleman
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:38 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Middleman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:09 pm

Good luck to FGR....Old Bob feel its more jealousy than anything else. Two very well written replies.

Desertshot
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:25 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Desertshot » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:52 pm

Old Bob wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:41 am
Desertshot wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:51 pm
Thats why I asked the question "Is it hypocritical? " as you quite right he state he is interested in eco sustainability but are financial and eco sustainability linked, can you have one without the other? Perhaps it's more a question of ethics. Also I don't agree that "sustainability" is poorly defined. It is misused....and maybe used to often but it is easily defined....
Yes, you are right ... they are linked, but not identical.

I think you are wrong that "sustainability" can be easily and unequivocally defined. All attempts at definitions that I have seen do one of two things. Either they are so all-encompassing as to mean little or nothing (e.g., "avoidance of depletion of the world's natural resources") or they involve vague terms like this beauty from Wikipedia: "a socio-ecological process characterized by the pursuit of a common ideal".

So what's your definition, Desertshot?
Hi Bob, my understanding of "Sustainability"; is the ability of something to be maintained at a certain rate or level. I don't believe Forest Green Rovers are Sustaining themselves economically nor do I believe that their adventures in football are carbon neutral. Even if they where that still doesn't make the activities of FGR good for the environment. Mr Vince is an Industrialist who sells energy that is renewable, out of which he has made a lot of money. He finances a professional football club with some the profits from his business, why? I'm not sure about Mr Vince's motives, they just doesn't sit with me....

Old Bob
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:23 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Old Bob » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Desertshot wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:52 pm
Hi Bob, my understanding of "Sustainability"; is the ability of something to be maintained at a certain rate or level. I don't believe Forest Green Rovers are Sustaining themselves economically nor do I believe that their adventures in football are carbon neutral. Even if they where that still doesn't make the activities of FGR good for the environment. Mr Vince is an Industrialist who sells energy that is renewable, out of which he has made a lot of money. He finances a professional football club with some the profits from his business, why? I'm not sure about Mr Vince's motives, they just doesn't sit with me....
Good stuff, DS. I think we are on the same page.

As you have defined it, "sustainability" is pretty much unattainable. It's simply not possible with human economic activity to maintain natural resources at the same level. They are finite and each and every thing that depletes this is by definition unsustainable. So you might say that wind energy is "renewable", but you have to build the generator (out of natural resources) and mount it on a tower (built out of concrete and steel). Try as you might, these natural resources will never be 100% recoverable at the end-of-life of the wind generator. Sustainability is more something to strive for, to try to get as close to as possible, than an absolute.

The real problem here is that we have a social and economic system based on "growth". The stupidity of that is self-evident. So we have got ourselves into a situation where we have huge problems caused by over-population, but the "solution" put forward by politicians and governments is more growth ... which is no solution at all.

Middleman
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:38 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Middleman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:39 pm

Bob if we are over populised maybe we need a form of euthinasia (sorry about the spelling).........
Hang on Covid 19.

Old Bob
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:23 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Old Bob » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:02 pm

Middleman wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:39 pm
Bob if we are over populised maybe we need a form of euthinasia (sorry about the spelling).........
Hang on Covid 19.
It's an ill wind ..., MM. The two world wars last century were human disasters of the worst kind, but did help to keep a lid on over-population (at least in the developed countries that were most heavily involved in the warfare).

Middleman
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:38 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Middleman » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:06 pm

Plus the Germans and Japenesse did their best to bring the populations down by more.........sorry forgot the Italians.......sorry Lazio

Crowthorne
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:18 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Crowthorne » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:59 pm

Add to them the Romanians Bulgarians and Croats plus the Vichy government and numerous other puppet regimes.

Desertshot
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:25 pm
Re: FGR & Hector Bellerin

Post by Desertshot » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:34 am

Old Bob wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:23 pm
Desertshot wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:52 pm
Hi Bob, my understanding of "Sustainability"; is the ability of something to be maintained at a certain rate or level. I don't believe Forest Green Rovers are Sustaining themselves economically nor do I believe that their adventures in football are carbon neutral. Even if they where that still doesn't make the activities of FGR good for the environment. Mr Vince is an Industrialist who sells energy that is renewable, out of which he has made a lot of money. He finances a professional football club with some the profits from his business, why? I'm not sure about Mr Vince's motives, they just doesn't sit with me....
Good stuff, DS. I think we are on the same page.

As you have defined it, "sustainability" is pretty much unattainable. It's simply not possible with human economic activity to maintain natural resources at the same level. They are finite and each and every thing that depletes this is by definition unsustainable. So you might say that wind energy is "renewable", but you have to build the generator (out of natural resources) and mount it on a tower (built out of concrete and steel). Try as you might, these natural resources will never be 100% recoverable at the end-of-life of the wind generator. Sustainability is more something to strive for, to try to get as close to as possible, than an absolute.

The real problem here is that we have a social and economic system based on "growth". The stupidity of that is self-evident. So we have got ourselves into a situation where we have huge problems caused by over-population, but the "solution" put forward by politicians and governments is more growth ... which is no solution at all.
Yup Bob you have petty much summed it up...and Mr Vince is a good example of the hypocrisy of that this throws up. He has made a lot of money out of selling the lie that energy can be produced sustainably at the current level of consumption....it can't. He has found a way of making money and lots of it , thats all. If you really cared about the environment would you continue to live a low footprint life, i.e live in a van using very little energy or the earths resources or would you build a multi national company pouring hundreds of millions of pounds in to selling renewable energy (to a world that is simply using to much energy in the 1st place )for profit, some of which you then pour into a unsustainable football club? My thinking is, go and buy what remains of the Rain forest and protect that mate! Not pour millions of £ into a football club! You are absolutely right in your analysis and " growth" In it's current form is unsustainable but alas there is not the political or social will to change that. People understandably wan't to strive to have better lives. politicians yearn for power so promise them the better lives, they sell them that. But it not sustainable. As you say the worlds resources are clearly finite but we don't wan't to let go of what we have, although we all know that we are destroying it. Mental...... but maybe it's what Nature intended.......It's all so tragically sad. Especially when you have children and grandchildren.....COYS!


Post Reply